that's civil contempt. and the dam bl thing is you can be imprisoned far longer on a civil contempt charge than a criminal one because you don't have the right to appeal. you don't have the right to have a judge -- to have a lawyer. you don't have any rights that are the due process rights you would have in a criminal case. so there are many situations in the system that people are unaware of that are creeping up on average people like you and me. >> is it just the state that concerns you? what about in today's world corporations when we do searches on the internet or we use credit cards and our behaviors are tracked or use cell phones and all that information is out there. >> i -- i'm, of course, concerned with the ordinary citizen be being a criminal which is what you're talking about. if you're saying that i'm concerned with corporations, i have a very hard time drawing a line between the state and corporations. i don't think corporations as they exist today could exist unless they had state privilege, u